My recent post on Breitenwinner Cave and the associate skeletal remains has been drawing quite a few people to the site, and as some may have seen, comments from one of the people in the video. From this, I do have a few updates to make.
The supposition that it could potentially have been a prank seems wrong, I now tend to believe that these individuals are members of the US military, who used to serve in Germany. However, the website that the individual posting at this site is associated with, cavelore.com, is a site focusing on giants, UFOs, and other paranormal phenomenon, which should make everyone skeptical of the claims
There is no evidence of human bones coming from inside of Breitenwinner Cave. The video is too grainy to see anything resembling human remains, and the single clear bone showed was not human. This interpretation has been supported by current PHD student in physical anthropology from SUNY Stony Brook.
The individuals involved, while not on film, claim to have taken a bone from the site, and have had said bone analyzed by an anthropologist. After contacting this individual, I have been told that the findings were inconclusive, and that the species could not be identified. While identification has been made as a humeral shaft, this could come from countless mammalian species, based on the photographs given to said anthropologist.
These photos are available at the cavelore.com website, so anyone can take a look at how grainy they are and see that no measurement was possible.
I would also like to once more remind everyone that looting and site destruction such as this is against both US military policy and international law. These actions were illegal, especially if it was site with human remains, and especially if items were looted from the site. While these individuals may carelessly present a dramatic and appealing image of their activities, anyone in a similar position should instead report finds to local authorities or professional university archaeologists or CRM firms.
Filed under: Archaeoporn, Looting | Tagged: Archaeoporn, Army, Breitenwinner Cave, Giant Skeletons, Hoax, Human Remains, Military, Update
[...] There is now an update to this article here. [...]
My name is Patrick Cooke, the one behind the Bible UFO Connection website, and the one who facilitated the public presentation of the recent Breitenwinner Cave exploration by Danny Bowen and his team. I would like to set the record straight on the implications of a covert agenda concerning the release of this find.
I will first address this statement. “However, the website that the individual posting at this site is associated with, cavelore.com is a site focusing on giants, UFOs, and other paranormal phenomenon, which should make everyone skeptical of the claims.” Yes, I did put up the cavelore.com website, did a great deal of research for the data appearing on that website, and used my influence to get Mr. Bowen on talk shows and exposure within the paranormal community. However, I challenge anyone to find a link to The Bible UFO Connection website on cavelore.com, or any attempt to direct anyone to that website in any interviews done on talk shows, where we have presented this anomaly. I am, and will continue to be a “facilitator”, only, in this project.
The original article “Giants – Myth or Reality?” does have a direct link to my research on giants on The Bible UFO Connection website, but that article was submitted for publication on November 24, 2007, and I was unable to complete a website for this, until November 26. Since that time, all public references to this project go directly to the cavelore.com website and not bibleufo.com. Anyone is free to contact any of the talk show hosts who have done interviews on this project and question whether I asked, or encouraged the hosts to direct the listeners to The Bible UFO Connection website. This is with the exception of the first show on the X Zone radio show, which aired on 11/9/07, over two weeks before we put the cavelore.com website online.
Anyone claiming that this for financial gain can check the 25 pages, on cavelore.com, or the almost 2000 pages, on bibleufo.com to realize that there is not a single request for money, for any purpose. I am an author and do advertise my books on bibleufo.com, but everything I publish is available online, which makes any monetary gain minimal. If one thinks this is some attempt to advance the Christian agenda need only read the research I have posted on bibleufo.com to see that my work is a complete contradiction of the Christian agenda.
The contention that these are, or are not, human bones is in debate. Some claim they are not human. This is understandable, but only if one completely ignores the testimony of the 1535 document we have posted on the website, which clearly discusses the “human” skulls found in the cave. This document was found, not in somebody’s old trunk in the attic, but in the Amberg Library, in the town, where the 1535 expedition originated. And, yes, the anthropologists are not making a firm commitment to verifying that these are human bones, but these assessments have been made from the video of the cave exploration, and not direct examination of the cave, or the bones. But, neither are they discounting the distinct possibility.
If this was a hoax, or we were just using it for some covert agenda, why would we be making the following statements on very top of the main page of the website?
* “What it is: A Bavarian catacomb located in a cave on the German/Swiss border containing thousands of normal, and not so normal, giant, human bones. The normal size bones are found burned and brittle in a massive mound of bones, wood, and ash. The giant bones are buried, or arranged in a ritualistic manner.”
* “What it might be: Is this a massive burial cave for an ancient race of giants? Is it a possible crematorium for the missing prisoners of Stalag 383, a nearby Nazi prisoner of war camp, with a nasty reputation? — OR — Is it both?”
* “The intent of those presenting this paradigm to the public is to expose it to as wide an audience as possible, and gain support for an official investigation to have those very important questions answered.”
That is our agenda, we have clearly stated so in every public presentation of this paradigm, and we do want to prove, not just imply, that there are human bones, normal or otherwise, in Breitenwinner Cave. To make the assertion that our motives are otherwise is simply speculation and unwarranted, in light of our clear public statements. We would also like to point out that Danny Bowen has expressed regret about the amateur way the expedition was carried out and the seemingly callous way the bones were treated. He was there and will speak to this publicly at the next available opportunity, which will be posted here, and on the cavelore.com website.
I could go on concerning this concept, but, to clear the air, I am willing to speak directly to “archaeologyknits” if he, or she, will contact me by email at admin@oraclepublish.com. I will call or give my phone number to this individual, and be willing to openly discuss this on the phone. I, of course, hesitate to direct anyone to my website, to find out what my true agenda is, but there is another way to determine this. I am a contributing writer to major outlets for UFO, paranormal, and other subjects, and my articles are a available on those sources. Two of these are: Alien Seeker News http://www.alienseekernews.com/ and UFO Digest http://www.ufodigest.com/.
In closing, I would like to make a clear statement about my association with the Breitenwinner Cave project. I need no notoriety from this, as I am well-known in my field. I am sincere in hoping that an official determination of the points we have presented about the Breitenwinner Cave takes place. The research I have done leads me to believe that this cave is a repository of both normal and enormous human bones, but, if a thorough and public formal investigation proves otherwise, I will accept that result. I believe that these feelings are shared by Danny Bowen and that he will also accept the result of such an investigation.
I look forward to a response to this post.
Thank you,
Patrick Cooke
admin@oraclepublish.com
“However, I challenge anyone to find a link to The Bible UFO Connection website on cavelore.com, or any attempt to direct anyone to that website in any interviews done on talk shows, where we have presented this anomaly. I am, and will continue to be a “facilitator”, only, in this project.”
This has nothing to do with my statement, the site itself has the page “Tribes of Giants in the Bible and Around the World” claiming the historic existence of biblical giants, just a false myth in reality, as true.
It also mirrors the page “Giants a Source of Demons”, the issue of links is immaterial, when entire pages are reproduced without links (http://cavelore.com/giantsbible.htm and http://www.bibleufo.com/giants.htm) .
The fact is that anthropologists and scientists have to work based on the evidence, and this video and pictures offer no evidence.
The claims of evidence for giants a demonstrably false, and claims about the looted bone being human have never been substantiated by experts.
The issue here is that you have already figured out what you wish to find, and are looking for evidence for that, while ignoring evidence and epistemology to the contrary. Your work is beyond shaky, and lacks any evidence or validation.
So be it. I was not aware that you were making your assertions because you do not accept any possibility that giants may have existed. I am not sure if you even looked at the research we present, however, if not, you are simply condemning us without consideration of anything, but your personal beliefs. If you did read the research, and do not feel that we presented any valid evidence on this paradigm, I doubt that anything short of a giant showing up on your doorstep would convince you. Claiming that we are “ignoring evidence and epistemology to the contrary”, when there is no evidence and epistemology to the contrary, shows that you are guilty of the very claim you made in your final statement, when you said “Your work is beyond shaky, and lacks any evidence or validation”. Thank you for attempting to cast doubt on any, and all points, we make. That should, as it always does, cause anybody, with the least bit of genuine curiosity, to research this on their own. And, this should, also, show that your unfounded claims about our lack of integrity are simply motivated by your belief that anyone promoting the belief in giants, or doing biblical research, must be shady.
Patrick Cooke
Your work on Breitenwinner Cave shows no evidence of giants, that is a simple fact. As for biblical research, in the many years I have spent in that field, no one has ever shown evidence of giants as historical beings, nor is it even a marginally legitimate field of research. I do not see why you would believe I am open to the existence of giants, as there is not any serious archaeologist or biblical scholar that does.
When someone can show hard physical evidence of a giant from a well documented and archaeologically sound excavation, that will be one thing, though that will still not be proof of any biologically unique group.
I would refer all readers to aardvarchaeology’s recent piece on informed consensus, http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2007/12/skepticism_and_informed_consen.php , as a good explanation of why I follow legitimate archaeology and not pseudo-science.
there are good points from both archaeologyknits and Mr. Cooke, however one thing that is being ignored is of the way the bones are buried in the middle of the cave, and the fact that there is burnt wood and bones at the top of it. sure, this might be an ancient animal den… but last i checked bears did not have the knowledge to create fire. this means that the bones at the top of the cave are associated with ancient human activity. in the middle of the cave the bones are found (clearly seen in the video as well) buried in a ritualistic way with 5 foot rockwalls partitioning off the bones into a hallway like structure… again i do not believe bears or animals have the knowledge of such a civilized construction. since this cave is hard to access and about 400 feet above the land in that area, i can not imagine one single reason why someone would take a massive amount of their dead cows or livestock up to the cave for burial. i challenge you to show me one single mass grave in the world of a ritualistic burial of animals bigger than a dog. if you are able to show this to me im sure the bones in that grave would not number in the thousands. again i ask you where your priorities lie. would you condemn soldiers placed in an awkward situation with a shovel before you acknowledge that this is a live fire range? maybe you are not from a military background but it does not take a genius to understand that mortar fire and bombing from hellfire missiles will cause more damage then a simple shovel issued to soldiers. why will you blame three soldiers before you blame the entire u.s. military for degrading a historical site? do you think the chain of command at the joint multinational readiness center is not aware of this cave… and if so how do you explain the heavy construction barring anyone from entering the complex? that is the goal of the breitenwinner cave project, to make mass publicity of this to warrant a full scale investigation by those of a qualified background. would you rather the bones lie on a bombing range or in a museum if of a prehistoric nature? that is how we feel as well which is the whole purpose of this in the first place.
Ok, a lot to respond to here.
First, fires do happen naturally, though this may indicate human behavior, as may stone arrangements, though neither of these is clear from the video.
Is this a ritual burial though? There seems no evidence for this, there are natural formations where many bones collect, and one place that is exceptionally common is in caves, where people and animals go and their remains can build up over long periods of times in exceptional numbers. The fact that some may appear buried fits within a cave situation, where various processes cause the collapse of the cave over time.
Yes, the bombing is destructive, though it will not necessarily destroy context, as your digging did. There is a difference between having a rock land on a bone, which is going to happen in a cave situation no matter what, and having a human come and turn over piles of bones treasure hunting and make it impossible to develop an accurate chronology. Fuzzy photos and poor video aside, you are a professional photographer for the military, don’t you think you could have just provided photos instead?
How does anything make it your job to break international law and to loot graves, especially if the military is aware of this cave and has taken measures to keep people out. Additionally, if you want to get legitimate excavations going on the site, you should think of a method other than publishing in conjunction with all of this giant/UFO/bible misinformation, as its a turn off to people that actually do the real thing. You are potentially, and quite literary taking the bones of potential holocaust victims and putting them on display like P.T. Barnum
This guy is embellishing things quite a bit here in the video. He acts like he is the first one to enter that gave. I’ve been in it numerous times. I used to go fossil-hunting in it with one of the locals. There are many cave bear bones in there(verified), and many of the bones in the main cavern are way too big to be human. As it was explained to me by a local, the property originally belonged to a farmer who dug out the long chute to make the second section of the cave tall enough to bring in tourists(much like the one in nearby Velburg that still has tours); which he did until the German military kicked him out to make room for a training center. There is evidence all over the place of people exploring the cave(spent chem lights and also ashe piles from the fuel-based head lamps the locals use, as wells as pinted arrows on the walls to show the way out). The ‘wire’ probably came from an explorer. I believe the military keeps it as the only locked cave on base because it is the only one big enough to get lost in(supposedly miles deep). The main cavern had 10 to 20 ft stakactites. The military cut one out and put it in front of one of the buildings on base as a kind of monument(I don’t know if it is still there). Are there human bones in there? Yes. Probably Celts. There is also soot all over the main cavern that probably came from their fires. It is no easy task to get to the entrance. I have a hard time believing that the Germans would hike bodies 2 hundred yards across swampy field, then 500 feet up a wooded slope just to bury them in a cave. Most of the bones that look human are all broken up and have the same color and consistency of the Cave Bear bones(Cave Bears have been extinct for over 5000 years).
it is true that they cut a piece from the inside of this cave to show on display. this was located between the german and american flag in front of the post headquarters for years before it was relocated near the ponds guards office near gate one. tomba were you stationed there and if not how was it that you were able to access this part of the box unsecured? i of course had free roam because i was in the military. my second question is how were you able to access the gate without a key?
I worked as a defense contractor on the base. This was pre-911, so there was no guard at the gate anyway. The locals would just walk onto the base at night to visit the cave. The door to the cave was also never secure. It was clear from looking at it that every attempt to lock the cave was thwarted by spelunkers with welding torches, crowbars, etc.. In fact, the gate on the floor in the video looks like the one that used to be on the entrance when I was on the base. The more I look up the cave on the web, the more disturbing this topic has become. The conspiracy theorists are beginning to unload on this(it’s almost laughable). I know an owner of a private museum that looked at some teeth pulled out of the cave. He said they were cave bear molars, and of similar size to the 15 foot specimen he had in his collection. So large bones in the cave could either be dead cave bear, cave bear prey, or food local celts had brought into the cave to eat. There are celtic burial gournds all over that area. I had a friend who also claimed to have seen a 7-inch Sabre-Tooth tiger fang taken from the cave.
This whole story is interesting enough without giants.
As someone from the public who just happened to hear about this story and one of Danny’s interviews, the only way to answer the questions is to actually send people out who know what they’re doing to the cave.
Lets do it already instead of arguing about what it all might be, because honestly, I’d rather just KNOW what all this really is.
And I know that might not be easy but the only way to know is to… know.
But we should all be curious if the government is ignoring a massive cave of bones.
And I don’t care about giants.
Danny also mentioned fake land mines around the cave
wuz dat about?
PS – “The ignorant will not believe this story, the experienced ones will not think it possible. But we have seen it with our own eyes, and it is the truth.”
Good point Chris. Send someone who knows what they are doing, not someone just in it to draw attention to themselves. Having been there many times, and talked to a couple professionals about it, I think it would be worth an archaeologists time to sneak out there. There’s plenty of Cave Bear and other interesting bones that would be of moderate interest to them. The ‘giants’ story is bogus. That story was written 300 years before Darwin was even born, so what did they know.
Yeah. I left something about it on the Discovery Channels forum for their new show Bone Detectives. Discovery Channel has lots of shows that are kept going by the viewers sending ideas in like MythBusters and Dirty Jobs
I’m the first to post anything on it too because its such a new show.
So hopefully they’ll consider it.
I am stationed here and have been in the Breitenwinner Cave myself. I also have a working map and an old map I found here on the post. Saying that the cave draws a lot of people is nonsense. They cannot come on post without an ID! Touring the cave takes a least two hours and there is a another sealed entrance. The post boasts of having old panzers buried in the training grounds and 14 miles of tunnels, wihich I have been here 6 years, and have only found a dump, where the Germans depositied the remains of the Third Reich in certain places. The cave does have a lot of bones in it, but it is due to the hogs that once lived in the cave. There are 1 or 2 graves in the cave due to the Nazis, when the Americans where pushing to Hohenfels from Burlangenfeld the Nazi’s put all of the camps Polish Jews in the cave and sealed it off. Some died and remained there while some got out. There is a memorial on post with the rock they used to seal it. Saying that there are UFO’s is quite dumb.
archaeologyknits, you sound so much like a whining child,has it occured that the goverment don’t want people in because they have something to hide.I’m glad these young men did what they did,our govwerment has been hiding the truth of giants for a bery long time now.No,I’m not a nut looking for your or anyone else’s time,but don’t you think if the goverment was going to do anything that it would of already done it.Maybe the guy were a little rough,but they probably don’t know alot about archaeology,and wanted to bring back something.Instead of doing all this bitching why don’t you try to put together a team and go down into the caves yourself,and see how far you get.
As I have noted in previous posts.
A) There are no giant bones in the film, and the bone removed has not even been identified as human.
B) There have been various expeditions to the site already published. ie things have already been done. As for the government doing something, blocking looters and trespassers is something, in my opinion.