Ok, without a doubt, one of the most popular topics on this blog has been Breitenwinner Cave and the video posted by three US soldiers of their time spent in the cave hunting for human remains.
All along, my position has been that, their destructive exploration and looting of what they believe to be a human bone was unnecessary and illegal, that there has been no evidence of human remains presented in video or looted materials, and that the claims of giants are obviously false and detract from any scientific value. I have received a number of comments on this issue, some supporting my position, others supporting the actions of the soldiers, and some quite insulting. Among these have also been claims of conspiracy, blames, and spacious accusations of Holocaust denial.
First, I feel the need to address the fact that I do not deny the Holocaust, or the important sacrifice soldiers from around the world made in stopping it. There is no tenable position in denial of the Holocaust, and those who take this position are frequently lead by terrible bigotry. Archaeology and the study of history support the fact that the Holocaust did occur.
The main reason that I am continuing the discourse, however, is to address two of the most frequent claims that have been made in the defense of the soldiers who went into Breitenwinner Cave. The first, is that this cave has gone unnoticed and that it needs to be brought to the attention of officials or professional scholars. This is a terribly incorrect assumption. In fact, with only a few moments on google, one can pull of the following sources addressing the cave.
- Trace Fossils in Caves of Germany and Austria, Wilfried Rosendahl and Doris Doppes in Scientific Annals, School of Geology Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Special Volume 98, 241-249 Thessaloniki 2006.
- Bärenschliffe in fränkischen Höhlen Cramer H., in Fränkische Heimat 10 (7) 1931, 206-209
- Die Höhle bei Breitenwinn, Hagan M. in Abh. Nath. Ges. Nürnberg, 9 1892. 37-51
- Die Breitenwinner Höhle, Berger, A. in Tagungsband anläßlich der 18 Jahrestagung des Verbandes der Deutschen Höhlen- und Karstforscher eV in Velburg/Opf 24.-26.9.1976 (see this site)
- Lorenz, Wilfred Die Breitenwinner Höhle, Der Fränkische Höhlenspiegel 6-1976
- Flurl, M. Beschreibung der Gebirge Baierns und der oberen Pfalz, München 1792
Clearly there is a good deal of discussion out their on this cave, though it might not all be extremely accessible, that is a relatively common issue in the scholarly world. Ignorance or conspiracy concerning this site is clearly questionable. Additionally, since Berger and Lorenz both were written post WWII, they one cannot make the claim that there is some sore of Holocaust conspiracy.
One might then ask, why is the military bombing around the site or why there is not a continued excavation of Breitenwinner cave. The simple answer is that there are countless archaeological sites the world over that must be ignored because they are not as significant as others. Archaeologists, as all scholars, run on a combination of limited funding, limited time, and specific focuses.
Is it a shame that the site is threatened, yes. However, looting will not help this, and scholars will not be attracted by exaggerated claims of giants from sites that are more focused on such pseudo-science than they are on historical events.
Filed under: Archaeology, Archaeoporn, Looting, Pseudo-Science | Tagged: Army, Breitenwinner Cave, Giants, Hoax, Looting, Publications
[...] There is now an update to this article here and here. [...]
disinformationist!
Let it go already. I think the way you handled danny was a bit pedantic, and you didn’t win any allies to your cause either. Sure, he acted like a kid, but he’s young, we expect that, but he also has a great point about whther bombing is somehow better than ‘looting’ one bone.
Not all of us are purists or academics, and do things in ways that are not consistent with rigorous scientific methods. Some looting is even seen as beneficient ( as long as we catch them before they hit the paydirt, or distort the record) in the sense that they do some of the primary digging.
here is bad looting :
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/29/nopd.looting/index.html
and here is how to use looters properly:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/2007-02-11-maya-looters_x.htm
But to anyone who thinks these are Holocaust remains, we simply point to the fact that they are likely not Jewish, because if they were the whole world would have tilted by now to save the bones.
So that leaves us with the obvious answer which is that they are likely some of the millions of un-named Goyim who died so that the world would tilt into apoplectic fits every time the holocaust card gets thrown out there…
Well ignoring your mildly conspiratorial and anti-semitic ending, I would certainly beg to differ about the looting.
Archaeologists loose information about objects no matter what, when they are looted. The positive article you post even makes the point
“Of course, researchers would prefer to have their sites remain undisturbed, Lucero says. She and her colleagues hope to begin a more thorough survey of Yalbac, starting in 2008, to settle whether their suggestion of a diverse religious life among the Maya can be determined from the temples themselves, and by comparison with temples at other sites. Even though there is a guard at Yalbac, there is concern about more looting there before that work can begin.”
Looting is destructive without records or actual study. If the items taken by looters were left in context, for trained excavators, they would be of much more use to archaeologists.
I didn’t disagree with you as per the effects of looting per se, but rather the way you treated the guiy who brought attention to the site–kind of pedantic and not productive by way of dialogue–rather than inspiring a non-scientist, you seemed to have ( at the time I first read your posts here) berated the poor lad.
If you feel that my view is conspiratorial, perhaps it is because you are not familiar with the phrase ” one Jewish fingernail”, in context to Zionist beliefs that the goyim are worth less as people than, or the base ideology of Zionism that “if the whole world pulled in one direction”, etc.
It is just a ‘fact’ these days that so-called Jewish semites are more ‘valued’ than other semites. Could you possibly disagree? And Holocausts? I have yet to see a serious lobbying effort for historical analysis here in the west of the 20 million+ slaughtered Stalinist Era Christians, killed by so-called “bolsheviks”, nor do I see extra research dollars flowing into the hands of Pol Pot era historians.
That term “anti-semitic” gets thrown about so loosely these days that it has diminished in value. For instance, when was the last time you used that term to come to the aid and defense of Palestinians, or other middle eastern people? They are semites too–but I would gladly wager that you haven’t, and won’t come to their aid as quickly, or use the term “anti-semitic” as loosely as you do above.
But I don’t disagree with you about the importance of sites being left undisturbed, but rather was challenging your approach to a non-science based ‘commoner’.
Antisemitism is a word that I would not say has diminished in value, but one that has developed over time, just as all parts of language tend to do.
Certainly it could be extended to people other than Jews, and I have done so, and might not be entirely appropriate for all Jews, but by and large that is what it means in today’s world.
As for the quote “So that leaves us with the obvious answer which is that they are likely some of the millions of un-named Goyim who died so that the world would tilt into apoplectic fits every time the holocaust card gets thrown out there…”, and why I would call it mildly conspiratorial and anti-semitic, it’s actually quite simple. This seems to be based on a likelihood that human bodies would be ignored if they weren’t Jewish, and then extrapolates from this that they must be human bodies, when actual textual evidence, imagery, analysis of bones, and exploratory records of the site all point towards non-human remains.
The writer of this blog is condescending to a ridiculous degree. I think this cave needs to be studied not put in danger by weapon’s fire. Exposure is good in this case. I hope this site gets investigated soon by proper archeologists but that won’t happen while people like you call out well meaning amateurs who just want to help. When I searched for this cave to find out information about it, your site was number one in the search rankings. I find this highly concerning. There is skepticism (which is fine and good but in this case not warranted) and then there is impeding true scientific inquiry by labeling amateurs as beneath your notice and other archeologist’s notice. That is the true injustice here. I want information not bickering about said information. You are casting a light of scandal over any subsequent research that will come from the cave.
As I have noted, there are already a number of scholarly publications on this site. Any further work should not come as a result of illicit and unethical behavior. Invasive and context destructive exploration like that seen in the video is what will discredited future work in the site.